Conversation with Advocates for Refugees Singapore (English)

Unknown Speaker  1:30  

Thank you so much, really happy to meet with new people always. So my name is Mathilda. I’m based in Singapore. A few years ago, I actually was studying overseas in Australia. And that was where I started learning about refugees back when I was still in Singapore. I think the issue although has been ongoing for decades, it’s not something that really was that I was aware of growing up. But when I went to the I went to Australia, and when I started getting more interested in human rights issues, and gotten more understanding of Australia’s Australia’s treatment towards refugees and asylum seekers, that’s how I started looking up a bit more and realizing that actually, Southeast Asia also have our unique refugee crisis, or like, the issue of forced displacement is prevalent. So how AFRHG actually came about, I should say, it’s AFRHG is what it is today, because of involvement of really a lot of people just to share how it came about in the beginning. So I was actually doing my Master’s in international development in at the University of New South Wales. And I happened to chance upon the elective, which is refugees and forced migration. So I really never didn’t think very much of it. Or just thinking, Oh, it would be an elective for me to understand a bit more about the topic area. And you know, lo and behold, when I took that module, actually, that was when the 2015, under Andaman Sea crisis happened. And so it was really like a reality for me, because it was happening in real time, right? You’re learning about, like, the theories about about the international frameworks, and regional framework frameworks. And when you come down to the actual situation, you are seeing how countries are responding. And, in a sense, it was a huge shock for me, because firstly, it’s very new to me, but I realized that really, it’s not the first time it’s happened. And then realizing that countries in the region are actually not quite not quite equipped to respond, or the response isn’t really what we hoped for. So there was the whole issue of them trying to disembark and they’re being pulled out of the boats, they’re not being pulled out into the open seas again. So there was this whole situation. So fast forward, after I completed my studies, I came back to Singapore. I really was very keen to continue pursuing this, like, what is something being done in Singapore about it? Can we do something from Singapore also? So I started AFR on the Facebook group, really just to see if there were like minded people that could come together. 

And you know, True enough, although Singapore is a really small place, but for someone who’s, I guess away for a few years, that was my way of trying to connect with people that could possibly share similar interests and passions and then you know, we could see what we could do. So really, that was how AFRHG came about. And the objective really was to try to raise awareness about the situation. Because a lot of what we learn about, I guess the everyday citizen, we know about global issues through the media, through media, but the media also has a way of, I guess, filtering a pirate prioritizing certain information. So, you know, we want to provide I guess an alternative means for people to learn about the situation. And And then from there, see how how citizens are really people just based in Singapore can do. Yeah, so so that’s, that’s a bit of the background of how I came into this and and also how AFR actually came about.

Unknown Speaker  5:46  

my case in Matilda is kind of the same. But of course, we started on different trajectories. I guess I’ve always been passionate about social justice issues since I was young. But the thing was that my involve with refugee started, like a few years back, I was actually teaching as a, what do you call a junior college teacher teaching history back in 2016. And then I was going to start on my master’s program, but then you know, my initial research Master’s project was about Malay Muslim identities. And then what happened was that, like Matilda, the 2015, Andaman Sea crisis happened, and you know, you see Singapore pushing boats away from the shores. And the same goes for like other Southeast Asian countries, and then the 2016, European refugee crisis also kinda erupted. And I just remember feeling so bothered, and so upset by the fact that we’re not doing more than what we should. And, and we, they kind of pushed me towards setting on a new project, which is basically to work with refugees, because I care about them. And I realized, especially with Rohingya’s, they have not been a lot of literature written on them, or even work being done with them. And I guess that was also why I started to want to what for Rohingya refugees. So I started my ethnographic fieldwork with rectory back in December 2016. And my work started with them, since 2017. 

So as part of my master’s research, I did ethnography in bringing refugees in Malaysia in Colombia(07:26), specifically. And that was when I also started getting involved with Katahdin foundation, which is a Chinese organization. But this is the one based in Malaysia, and the one involve with refugees. And I think that working with them has really taught me a lot about centering the narratives of refugees themselves, rather than us speaking for them. And I think there was a lot of lesson that I learned throughout my research, and also my voluntary work with Geutanyo. But in my work, as far as I don’t know, I think 2017 I feel like I’ve known Matilda for so long. So in 2017, I attended like an event or two by them, I think they AFR did a refugee Awareness Week. But yeah, in 2017, I started volunteering with them for free got to research because I felt that was what I could do with them. And then we start kind of trying to expand on what we can do, because, you know, how do we actually want to advocate for refugee causes if we don’t understand how the ground actually feels about refugees? 

So as far as when I was a research coordinator with AFR, we actually tried to do research projects to interview Singaporeans To find out more about how they feel about refugees, right. And of course, the results vary. But it also informs us with regard to our campaigning, who we should reach out to, and how we can also try to change the way people think on the ground. Because I mean, in Singapore, if we don’t have a lot of ground support, it can be quite difficult to push for policies are there. Right. And I guess it’s always going to be a long term and change, and something that we will have to continue working on. I think like, I guess I just want to see that. Sometimes when people work with refugees, they forget that refugees themselves do have agency, and there’s a lot of ethics that we need to be attuned to in working with them. And it’s just, yeah, I just think that’s important. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  9:31  

I have one question. I guess you get asked this quite a lot. Because you’re in Singapore, and there is no refugee in Singapore. So what are the main thing that you advocate for and to whom are you advocating? 

Unknown Speaker  9:44  

for for us in Singapore because of the fact that there are no refugees here. It’s not it’s not very direct in with the way in which like policy, advocacy can be done. So it’s really having to familiarize the ground with what’s the situation and So so as to kind of work towards engaging with policymakers to to propose for or even to make recommendations on what government can do. Right. So I should say, as of now, it is still really getting Singaporeans to understand the situation and also to, I guess, offer them different ways of thinking about refugees, because you know that the narrative about refugees, that’s being perpetuated by like media by government, just for one you mentioned, in 2015, our Ministry of Home Affairs actually issued a statement stating that Singapore cannot accept refugees due to limited land space. So that in itself is really the one simple reason that the government is putting up and you know, what, how does Singaporeans feel about the government’s position? Is it is it clearly that? Oh, well, government says there’s no space, I think Singapore’s pretty small in itself. And we are also facing a growing population. So really, it’s, it’s, it’s easy to, it’s easy for Singaporeans to just think, Okay, then then that’s the end of the conversation. But we want to actually ensure that people, we really want to understand what that means. And whether Singaporeans think otherwise. So having conversations having events, not only not only wanting to inform them about the issue of forced displacement in the region, but it’s also having these conversations, right, because people might feel like, oh, since the government says that there’s nothing that can be done, then I think that’s, that’s it, because they don’t see themselves as individuals with the power to actually push for some change to occur. So we are doing the long the long, the difficult work. And it’s an ongoing work that has to be done for for individuals to really change that mindset, right? Because that mindset is so deeply embedded. And I guess Singaporeans are also very, very quick to I mean, we don’t question enough, I think we don’t question enough about what things are being said. So I guess, in terms of advocate advocacy, or even for us, for AFR, we have engaged with policymakers on several occasions in the past, including asking our, you know, Member of Parliament, whether you can raise certain questions in Parliament regarding refugees. And as it’s not a domestic consider a domestic issue. So often, it’s not very high on the agenda. And so it’s difficult to continue having refugees in part of our, our conversations, right, the day to day conversation. So we want to actually keep having to do that, and work towards some form of policy related change. So I think that’s, that’s, I guess, what we have to continue doing, and it’s a long journey, like what when he mentioned,

Unknown Speaker  12:58  

and he kind of says a lot about who we actually imagine to be part of our society, right? I mean, do refugees actually belong to our society? And if not why, and that actually can say a lot about social issues or social stereotypes. And that was also kind of what we found out during our research and conversations. And I guess, just to also pick up on on messy, like the fact that we don’t actually accept refugees, clearly point to why we need to do advocacy work for refugees and with refugees themselves. And I think like the Singapore government, actually, I think we, I mean, y’all can just check this in US statistics, like we don’t give a lot to UNHCR. And I think like, we can really do so much better than that. Yeah, it’s just something that we just have to continue to push for. Especially because in Singapore, even if we want to talk about refugees, we always have to be very careful. Like we have to portray it as a humanitarian issue rather than a political issue. But at the end of the day, I mean, if you look at it, the humanitarian issues also originates from a political issue. And if we don’t recognize that we can actually do much, you know, we can resolve the issue. Yeah. And we can continue to give humanitarian help. But like, if we don’t address the root of the problem, then how are we ever going to resolve this force displacement?

Unknown Speaker  14:23  

It’s interesting, I think, how each country has this long journey of advocating the government to first be interested in this issue, right? I mean, Indonesia has its own struggle as well for advocating the government because again, it’s also not the priority of our country. Your focus is advocacy within the within the Singapore itself, but do you also, do you also do advocacy to the Malaysian government or or even me Perhaps you also work in Indonesia?

Unknown Speaker  15:03

Actually, our advocacy is based in focus in Singapore. And in the other countries that we work in, we usually work with local organizations and partners. So like when you mentioned as anchor canoe or the canoe(15:20) foundation is, was firstly, based in Archie and later, they also become became a registered organization in Malaysia. So it’s important for us to to work with local partners, because they have the local knowledge and a also in better positions to advocate with the government and authority. So I know that Daniel, yes, and Tanya(15:48) has done amazing work in terms of engaging with government ministries. And it’s important for them, because when, when they, when they when there are certain issues concerning like luxury refugee populations, other organizations that are underground, or in really in the better position to do that not not an external, body or group like AFR, so so we do we devalue, working with local organizations, at the same time, also really understanding what our position is within this larger context. Because our focus is really to get people to think about what they can do from Singapore. And and even if they are no refugees, it doesn’t mean that our responsibility, and you know, it’s not as simple as also, I would like very much, of course, for the Singapore government to contribute more financially, because I know that we can do it, but then that shouldn’t be the end of it, you know, we have to think of what more that can be done. And even if that’s a government, you know, policy, really, basically, if government cannot do anything, as of now, it doesn’t mean that citizens don’t, don’t have the means to do something. So we are constantly trying to give people the idea that there’s something that they can do. And by individuals, I feel like it’s a very big topic, you know, this is the website. So when we have opposition’s You know, one of the most common questions we get from people is really how can I help, because there are people who really want to do something, but they feel like they might not really know where to enter. And for us, for AFR, we again, have been in the past few years networking with different organizations. So we often ask individuals to consider what are their? What are the skills and that they can offer? And what are they willing to do? Because, you know, I think commitment? And also, why do you want to do it, it’s also important, like when you mentioned the ethics of it, because we want to, we want to empower right in a way that is possible for refugees to actually make decisions, to be part of the competition to drive like, you know, designing our programs and things like that. So it’s not easy when people see like, Oh, I want to do something or, you know, the idea might be well intended, but they might not really know, the base, the basis or you know, the background. So we try our best to have often informed them so that they can think further about the impact that they can, you know, the impact of the what they want to do, whether it really would benefit the refugees or not.

Unknown Speaker  18:23  

And then you mentioned that you also raised this kind of awareness to the society through Facebook group, you started with Facebook group, do you think that that worked and like whether you still use this Facebook group as a platform for you to communicate with the society in Singapore about this issue, and to raise awareness,

Unknown Speaker  18:46  

the Facebook group really did manage to bring people together. And I guess as a as a platform to engage, most of the individuals are interested in this issue in Singapore, actually young, the younger audiences. So you have like the the uni University undergraduates and also young working professionals, there are also individuals from different age groups as well, they are interested. So keeping constant engagement with the individuals or the other members of the Facebook group is challenging because in a way, it’s it’s always having to, I guess f events to engage them on networking sessions, or really understanding why they are joining the group for a day there to look for ways to contribute and volunteer or to they just want to be informed about what’s happening. So you know, sharing articles, and, and also having individuals have the freedom to actually connect with each other and share ideas and all that. I would say I guess for the, at least for that particular particular Facebook group. It’s not it’s not really active. I know of other Facebook groups. I think we reference a lot from the Australian groups because I think that the concept of like, community engagement, and civic engagement is really very strong in Australia. So when I was actually, in Australia, I was really inspired No, by by them, because I see that they’re really mobilizing the citizens to do things. So they have things like rallies, and they have things like, you know, call your MP, write letters to your MP to, you know, share your views about certain policies that they have, they want to voice up against. So in Singapore, of course, that’s also we are quite a young nation. And when it comes to advocacy, as one you mentioned, there are also sensitivities. So trying to create that space for individuals to do that and know how to do that also takes time. So there are so many things, by the time the conversation, I feel like there’s so much that we can do. And often it is it is also having that, that long term, I guess, enough, enough energy to give to devote into making this work in a sustainable way.

Unknown Speaker  21:13  

What we can also do together is actually to not work in silos. I mean, like in Singapore, there are a lot of groups working with refugees, they have their own initiatives, but we don’t really come together. And I think like with every other social movements and groups, what needs to happen is for people to actually be a collective to actually push for things together. But of course, they can also be quite difficult. Because people have different agenda, and people have different. I don’t know, yeah, just people have different agenda, right. And also, at the same time, I guess, like what Mathilda said, it’s a lot about our political culture. I mean, for sure, we are driving and we are growing. But at the same time, we don’t have the kind of political culture like what Indonesia have even Right. I mean, people do protest through WhatsApp. But we can do that. And that’s why I think social media is great, in some ways, because of the affordances, it actually gives us a lease to actually see things that we want to see which we wouldn’t be able to see physically. I mean, we can be holding like, I don’t know, what do you call it? Play cats? to actually protest for refugees? Yeah, it’s a kind of cautious kind of politics. But I think it’s also necessary considering the situation or the environment we’re in.

Unknown Speaker  22:35  

Maybe, can I ask just a very basic question so that people who listen to or who listen to this can also understand what what kind of programs or activities that you have in AFRSG That’s the first one. And then the second one. I mean, you you you started into this since 2015. And so what kind of Is there any changes that you see, throughout the last five years from the very first time you began this? And then now? Is there any change in interest or in terms of understanding or awareness of the Singaporean, maybe youth society?

Unknown Speaker  23:18  

So yeah, as Wani mentioned earlier, she was formerly leading the research wing. And the two other areas. I think another part of the research team, is the legal research that is held by one of our members who’s based in Bangkok. So the legal research team actually helps to do we search for asylum claims. So it’s doing background research on different countries. And you know, that’s something that our depth, he believes that, you know, you don’t have to be based in, in any refugee receiving country to be able to do that work. So it can be remote volunteering. And so he actually trained out like a team of offline volunteers to do that. They do research. So aside from research, there’s also the campaign’s wing and also partnerships. So for the campaigns, we have no refugee awareness we held in conjunction with World Refugee Day. Awareness can be done anytime of the year. But that was that refugee awareness really came about shortly after AFR started so the first one we had was in 2016. And every year when we have refugee awareness, we kind of centered on the theme. So the last RAW that we did was last year in June, and the theme was, Why bother? So why bother? Right So yeah, like playing on the word bother as in the territorial borders and also why care about refugees. And it’s always having to be a bit creative thinking of ways to, to like really appeal to people or to get them interested or curious about it, so that there was during a pandemic. And of course, it was an online campaign, which was really interesting, because, you know, the first time everything actually went online, at the same time engagement is really different because some people still feel like they prefer in person engagement. So, in total campaign, previously, we also had exhibitions and exhibition, the exhibition that we had was about the Rohingya crisis. So May 2015, they got rescued by a Chinese fisherman, they will, alongside Archie(25:35) and then volunteer groups from Singapore went over on several occasions. So they actually put up an exhibition. And this exhibition actually went to different locations, schools, and we also pet with talks. So you know, awareness campaigns kind of fall under this aspect and better partnerships. A lot of this awareness sometimes leads to like what I mentioned earlier in the question of what you can do. So the way we have partnerships with organizations on the ground is really to learn from them, right? What are their needs on the ground, we are not on the ground, we don’t know at the ground realities, the challenges that they face the needs they have. So we don’t also want to go in with the assumption that, oh, they just need certain things. Or, in some cases, people are always very keen to donate in kind donation, but that’s not something that we believe in. So we really want to hear. And through partnerships, we are able to, in some cases, do crowdfunding for our partner organizations. In some cases, we want to invite volunteers that can volunteer their time their skills. Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker  26:48  

that kaptein(26:51) research, partnerships. And as for the second question, although Singapore is small, I will say that, you know, I’m always learning new things, like new initiatives on the ground, like people, people like having their own project. So one thing I observed in in this past five years is definitely people are still interested, this issue is something that’s still relevant to Singaporeans to people here. Of course, we’ve had, we’ve had like the individuals, they’re also educators, mainly from international schools, in Singapore, not so much on like the, like the government schools, I don’t know if there’s a reason for that. But it might be due to the limited time they have and also very strict curriculum. So and also, one thing I noticed is, there has been a lot more research from undergraduates, even in 2020 alone, everyone has to work from home and study from home and everything is held online, I’ve actually had many conversations with undergraduates doing research regarding refugees. So that’s really encouraging, because it just means that people are speaking and thinking about it. And people are also realizing how much how little research there are on refugees in the region, and specifically, refugee related research from Singapore. So I think that it is gaining momentum, it is slow. So it will be good, as Randy mentioned for, I guess, collectives working on this issue to come together to really join forces, right? to really push for maybe greater change,

Unknown Speaker  28:33  

there’s really been a lot more people, especially younger people are interested in the issue of refugees, and they want to study about it. Sometimes, like men, I do have like, students actually reaching out to actually asked about whether they can talk to me about refugee research, or they want to find out more about refugees. And actually, I think just a month or two ago, someone from university in Singapore. She’s a year for student, she wants to do research on refugees, and she wants to do more about refugees. And I think that’s very heartening to know. And I guess also the same thing I said, there have been a lot more events that I see that talk about refugees, or forced displacement, at least in general. And I think that’s great. So of course, there’s been some changes, also, there’s been continuities with regard to the kind of environment that we can talk about them. But like, you know, even with the raw 2020, like a pandemic, when we didn’t even I think what was also really hard to name was actually being able to reach out to people who usually don’t come for events, like we see new faces. And I think, to some extent, virtual events can really do have its own benefits. And I think that’s great because it’s not just Singaporeans who can attend. I mean, Singaporeans, not just people who are based in Singapore, who can attend both so people who are not based in Singapore, who also attend And I think one of the things that we were able to do during this role was actually to also invite speakers who are actually not within Singapore, with people who actually do have experiences of forced displacement. And I think that’s a lot of I mean, that actually really picks up a lot of interest from people who have also never spoken to refugees, and I think, are people with lived experiences. So I think that’s also when we, in which there have been some changes with this pandemic. Or at least having an event during this pandemic,

Unknown Speaker  30:35  

and then how does it impact your engagement with the government or, or with the parliament, because because I think, of course, every country has a different way. But just from hearing what you describing up until now, I feel that there’s a lot of similarities with what’s happening in Indonesia, even if we have like different contexts, different political culture, or whatever, but all of the things, almost all of the things that you describe, we also feel so maybe there’s something that we can learn from you guys.

Unknown Speaker  31:07  

In terms of the government engagement, it’s it’s also like a religious thing, right, like building a relationship with with the policymakers. And so the way that we have engaged with Singapore’s government, right from the beginning has been with one of our Member of Parliament is actually a strong advocate himself for various causes, including refugees. So we had a volunteer mission that went to Archie actually in 2016. And then following that, we had a chance to meet with Singapore’s minister of law, in a closed door meeting. So a lot of such, I guess, engagements are not in the public’s eye. And, and I think that’s the way that that works best based on, you know, our experience, also based on speaking or hearing from other other grown up movements in Singapore, and environmental groups, and so on. So, things like that closed door meetings, and also engaging with them to have the topic based in Parliament, and, and even to the extent of, I guess, trying to meet with relevant authorities. So we have also considered and have tried reaching out to our immigration to, you know, organize a discussion. But, you know, we will not, we will not granted that meeting, unfortunately. Because I think at the end of the day, we there are certain things that are not that, that the public does not know of there might be that when when people ask me, oh, are there policies in Singapore? What was the refugee policy in Singapore? Like, there’s there’s nothing, right, we don’t know of any domestic policy, but at the same time, that, you know, in a way, there are different ways of how refugees leave and enter their host countries. So it is, it is something that is not entirely preventable, right, like refugees or people who are in need of protection and living in the country. So So this, this bothers the, the the sensitivities that we spoke about. And so I think this is something that requires us building relationships with government to gain their trust, and to know what we are able to offer.

Unknown Speaker  33:24  

Yeah, and maybe just to add on, so I guess we’re also cognizant of the fact that maybe not the fact, the existence of some parts of Singapore, have been kind of exhibiting or expressing you know, phobic sentiments against migrants. And I think, you know, that’s why it makes it so important also, for us to be able to understand really how the ground actually feels about refugees or migrants, displaced people in general, just so that we can have an idea of how we can also campaign or change the way they think about certain things, and which could also kind of lend more credence and support to our advocacy efforts. Yeah. 

Unknown Speaker  34:14  

All right. So that was Mathilda, and Wani, from advocates for refugees in Singapore. I have one question for you Risye. What do you think is the most interesting points from this conversation today?

Unknown Speaker  34:30  

I think there are many interesting points, but I’ll point out one, I think among all like other organizations that I have known, I think this is particularly interesting because they’re based in Singapore. And Singapore is not hosting refugees. But I think Mathilda and Wani and fellows from advocates for refugees, Singapore, I think they’re very How to say motivated to change to advocate, even the government of Singapore, also to raise awareness of the society. Because since they’re not hosting refugees, I think like, one of the events that they mentioned the role refugee Awareness Week in 2020, they have a very interesting theme, which is the Why bother. And they also have the tagline here. It doesn’t affect me, why should I bother? I think that it’s really hard to say that is really strong and deep. Meaning, what about you?

Unknown Speaker  35:44  

I think, for me, it’s the fact that they are young. And they started with passion. Knowing that it’s a long journey ahead, especially with Singapore, not accepting refugees, which means that it’s just a different way of works or focus, if the country is accepting refugees or not, right, like if it’s like Indonesia or not. So I think it’s really interesting that they have a really strong passion when they started this, and they have achieved so much. I mean, you, you guys can see it from their website, it’s really great work that they that they do. And then they started with social media with Facebook, and how they can utilize that social media to at least get the first I don’t know, attention first volunteers or first people to engage and things like that. Which shows that it takes just one person to care, you know, and then you can develop, like, the whole thing as you go forward with with with the work, and then you can achieve so much, right. So I think it’s something that I am really happy to see. And for me very, very inspiring and very encouraging as well, in our work in UREF in RDI UREF as well. Does it because the issue is so difficult, it’s so complex, so that you get discouraged sometimes, right? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, and the fact that

Unknown Speaker  37:19  

they’re actually a volunteer based organization, I think, I mean, despite being a volunteer organization, I think they are trying to do the work meaningfully. They they try to explore different ways on how to, to reach people, for example, and they also do research. I think not every volunteer based organization, do that kind of work deeply or they try to be very meaningful about doing their works.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai