Conversation with Bangkok Urban Community Club and Branches of Hope (English)

Ayu 0:28  

Hi, this is Ayu. Akino and me are your hosts for this episode. Today we have Baqir from Bangkok Urban Community Club, which is a club led by volunteer refugees and asylum seekers in Bangkok, Thailand. The organization empowers refugees and asylum seeker by providing free informal educational activities. Baqir is the co-founder and leader of BUCC. He was a sociology student in Kabul Education University, and now is an African refugee living in Bangkok. Baqir previously founded a book organization to promote reading culture in Afghanistan society.

Ayu  1:06  

Today we also have Roy Njuabe, the head of refugees opportunity and development of Branches of HOPE, which is a charity organization serving asylum seekers and human trafficking victims in Hong Kong. Roy is a Cameroon native who moved to Hong Kong in 2005. He has a bachelor’s degree in theology and a master’s degree in international human affairs. He has an enormous passion for refugee rights and currently studying law in human rights at the University of Hong Kong.

Kino  1:41  

Perhaps we could start with some sort of self introduction of yourself, as well as your organization.

Roy

My name is Roy Njuabe. I’m based in Hong Kong. And I work in an organization called Branches of Hope and we’ve been existing for over 15 years. And our main focus is to help refugees, and asylum seekers with issues related to their well being. And we do a lot of advocacy, as well as seeking durable solutions for the refugees in Hong Kong. I’m originally from Cameroon, but I’ve been in Hong Kong for the past 17 years or so. And I think Hong Kong to me is like a second home. And so my passion have been really to empower refugee to seek for them to become self-sufficient. And also to advocate for change of policies that would enhance refugee wellbeing and also to enhance community integration

Roy  2:54  

Our program at the branches of Hope is specifically called “refugee opportunity and development program” in a nutshell, “ROAD”. And our work is distributed in three pillars, which is relief, development, and social reform. Because we believe that when a refugee enter a city, now you know, the complexity of city so our first target is to ensure that the refugee got their basic need. And that’s what we call the relief part of our work. We try to have accommodation, they got food, they got transportation to move from one place of the city to another they got a network of friends around them, if they have health issue, ensure that they have immediate, health care provided, and also to at least ensure that they have enough food to eat on a daily basis, have clothing, whatever they will need, as they enter Hong Kong.

So we have a very strong relief program, which is called “Secret Angel” which is a program that we provide housing support for the refugees and refugees don’t know who are the people, but they receive every month, and it’s subsidies from organization that goes towards your house rent. And we also have what we call our donations drives, which is to try to get what are the needs of the refugees. And we go to the community and asked for those needs. That means we match their needs with our donation, we don’t go and collect whatever people want to have or want to give out. No, we try to first of all go to refugees and streamline what their needs are. And we now move to the community as I say, Hey, look, these guys need these items, which will be very happy to support them in this area. And also we know we believe that you know once you enter a city, maybe you’re coming from a place where English is not your first language, you may want to communicate. We find that as a very essential program. So we try to engage our refugee to learn some basic communication skills in a new language that they are not familiar with, and also to ensure that these refugees are able to engage in the local community or to make friends to connect with people. Now we put it together on our relief programs, we have a series of development issues that we roll out with our refugees. The first one I will name it is in education, we try to ensure that refugees that had some level have access to higher education. Now, for example, if they graduated from the high school and wants to go to university, wherever we call the PSEA, which means Post Graduate Education Assistant program. Now this PSEA is to provide tuition fee for university students to be able to attend university and start to go back to school. We also have what we call Keeping Kids in Kindergarten program. It is a program that we provide subsidies for family to ensure that their kids go to school because we believe that, you know, education, the foundation of education is very important for our children.

Roy  6:08  

And then we also have youth programs that we have mentorship program that we empower our youth to be able to think critically about themselves and also the future. Now we got a set of group of adults that probably they might be struggling not to go, they can’t go back, they can’t go to university, and they can’t go to secondary school because their age have fallen in a certain category. Now we have what we call the vocational training program for our refugees. And these vocational training programs include barista training program to prepare them to work in coffee shops. It also includes warehouse training programs to help them work in warehouse, we now have what we call an online certification program where we partner with different universities to ensure that these people learn an accredited degree program online, which is cost efficient, and the quality of education are quite very good. So we formulate this program to help them to be able to tap into the resources of the world and also from the universities that are provided this kind of training to be able to prepare them for their future. Currently, the government of Hong Kong somehow give it technically for refugees to be able to look for employment. And once they are employed by their employer, they will need to apply for a work permit. And if it is approved by the Immigration Department, then they can now work legally in Hong Kong. These are unmandated refugees, and we are talking about a population of about 100, 120, not so many people. So in that way the government can regulate or can control the number of refugees that are able to work in the city was kind of a very nice strategy for them to be able to control this number. Because they know that if I allow refugees to work, I can control how many refugees can work in my country, because I can maybe know how many refugee I will accept to be able to work. So this work is not, like, illegal. Like, say when I have refugee status, I can just work legally. No. Once you have a permit, it means that you can look for a job. However, you will need the immigration on a case by case basis to approve the work permit before you can start to work. We’ve been helping a lot of refugee look for employment in Hong Kong, I was thinking the success rate is around 90% 95%. So it’s not too bad. The government actually give the work permit in a very fair way. I haven’t seen any case I’ve been rejected except one or two few cases maybe on legal grounds or whatever backgrounds the refugee have. Now if asylum seekers, they got no other hope in the city, they are done once the case is closed, you have nowhere to go. So what do we do as an organization is that we try to look into two other pathway, which is either resettlement or maybe voluntary repatriation to go back to your home country.

Roy  8:54  

And for those who cannot go back to your home country or have no other options in Hong Kong, we look for a third country solution called resettlement. We try to connect with organizations through private sponsorship to Canada, or a sponsorship to the US and also trying to look for opportunity in Australia, that part of the world.

So far for the past four years or so, we have successfully resettle over 50 refugees to different part of the world. Lastly, our social reform part of our work. Now we believe in social reform because it’s the key to policies. Now, change of policy can be very complicated and very daunting, sometimes it takes a number of years. So we always start at the grassroot level to ensure that the community is well informed about the situation. We’ll go to public education. We try to advocate for refugees to look for them to be more positive minded, in order for the community to see them as positive contributors to the society. And again through that network you will try not to […] to be able to advocate for certain change of policies.

Roy  10:00  

For the past 15 years since we started working in this area, there have been significant progress in terms of policy changes in Hong Kong towards refugees. At the beginning, the government does not support refugees, zero, they don’t support anything about refugees. But gradually, they turned to support refugee financially. Now, they turn to accept their cases. And so until now after, giving them the right to work in the city, not the right to work technically, but somehow they can look for employment with an exceptional cases, approve their visa then they can work. So you can see that from zero care of refugees, to a point where the government can actually allow mandated refugees to work in a city. It is a significant progress and a significant change for a very short period of time.

Kino

I want to confirm first, how many refugees are there in Hong Kong? And where are they from?

Roy 11:07

We got about 13,000 refugees in Hong Kong, majority of them from Southeast Asian countries. Couple from I can say 7%, I think maybe 20 30% from African countries. And then for the Middle East, we’ve got some of that maybe 10 20%. And we got some few percentage from South America countries. And where again, yeah, right.

Kino 11:26 

Thank you very much. Roy That’s a long explanation. And since your organization has been there for like, 15 years, and RDI, UREF, we just established like, two years, three years, so we’re like babies compared to your organization.

Baqir 11:29  

My question: how did you know about BUCC?

Kino 11:35  

Google. So we Google, urban refugees, Bangkok, and then yours came out on top of it. We know that there’s a lot of organizations, international organizations working on refugees in Thailand, like big organizations, as well as local organizations. But we are not really sure about, like, smaller community based or like refugee led organizations in Bangkok. My understanding is that refugees in Thailand are mostly at the borders, in the northern or southern Thailand, and more like in camp-like situations. And so we’re not really familiar with refugees living in Bangkok, you know, in the city of Bangkok. And like, how, what are the dynamics? What are the situation in Bangkok? How do they live in, like, the urban areas, that part is not really clear for us. And that’s why we’re very interested in your organization, because we want to find out whether that situation, I mean, your situation as a refugee in Bangkok is similar to the one that we have in Bogor, or in Jakarta.

Baqir  13:01  

Bangkok Urban Community Club is a refugee-led organization but it’s not formal, informal. Created in 2019 by a team of refugees and by support of volunteers, and still this team working very successfully, they provide education for refugees. Their goal is to empower refugees and asylum seekers in Thailand. All the members are refugees but we have few volunteer teachers from different countries. At the moment we have around 30 students. Here is a lot of volunteer organization, working for refugees and asylum seekers, and they have different things to provide for refugees. Some of them provide health care, some of them provide education for children, some of them provide some basic needs for refugees, but all of the organization they are not provide sustainable protection for refugees, especially for basic needs. And a lot of refugees unfortunately, they have a lot of challenges for their daily life or basic needs. 

Baqir 14:20

And for education, one international organization is JRS. they are provide education and formal education like English and computer class something like that.  Another we provide that we started last year provide English and computer or some another activities, Thai language and yeah another interest is called a stretchy clinic. They are provide health care for refugees. Another interest called BRC (Bangkok Refugee Center) they provide education for children and after they will be sent the children to high school.

Ayu 15:21

Baqir, can you explain, I mean, maybe a little bit more on the situation, specifically for refugees living in Bangkok, compared to the other refugees that living on the other area in Thailand.

Baqir

In Thailand, unfortunately, urban refugees don’t have any sustainable support. I saw a lot of refugees suffering from basic needs for food, for room, for transportation, for all of this refugee suffering in Bangkok. It is, to be honest, the condition is depend to the situation that will change in Bangkok. We hoping that if national screening mechanism which is will implement in Thailand by Thai government, I’m sure we will have some change in life of refugees. This Thai screening mechanism which is they will recognize displaced people, but they give them some rights for them. Like they can move freely and they can study. Yeah, this two rights they will give them, and they have plan to implement that law in June 2020. But because of COVID-19, they postponed it. We have not started this law. And we hoping that this law will  start and they will recognize refugees and will at least give these rights also for first step.

But for BUCC right now we have very good partner from Indonesia, Cisarua Learning Center, we have been five refugee-led organizations. We did crowdfunding together, we hoping if some change come if Thai government recognize us as a human being, and give us the chance to work, we hope that we can make the BUCC better and provide more education and empower refugees in Thailand. I think the biggest challenge that the refugees face that is we are not recognized by Thai law. And we are not allowed to live in Thailand, we are living illegally. If the police know us, they will arrest us. We cannot get rooms. We cannot get work. We cannot go to school or university. All of this is a big challenge. And I think if we make that person without any rights, we started something that we provide service for refugees. It is also the challenge.

Kino 18:22

Yes, I suppose the refugees in Bangkok is very similar to the one in Bogor or in Jakarta.

Baqir

Yes. But something different, at least they are not afraid of police. But in Thailand in Hong Kong, unfortunately, refugees always afraid of this, when they will be arrested by police, this is the most challenge that refugees have. At least I hope one day we can walk freely and go somewhere, not afraid of the police.

Roy 19:00

There’s no fear of arrest here, because all refugee got what we call a recognition document from the police. And they have to report to the police every two weeks to sign or maybe one month. So just like go there and then sign Okay, I’m still in Hong Kong, I’m alive. I’m still living. So this we got what we call a recognition document like an ID card, it is kind of a big ID card where if a police stop you and you show it to them, okay, you go. You don’t have any,  this fear is not here. We don’t have it. So in Hong Kong, we are having a system called Unified Screening Mechanism (USM). So this system is what they use to assess the refugee claim, which is kind of a combination of refugee and torture claim. So Hong Kong is a signatory of the Torture Convention, but not the refugee one. But somehow a few years ago there was a court ruling that forced the immigration of Hong Kong to take the responsibility to vet refugee claim. So they combined both system into one called the unified screening mechanism. So now UNHCR in Hong Kong is just for resettlement purpose, because once they are approved, once a case is substantiated by the immigration, they will send you to the United Nation. The UN organization will do that kind of vetting to see that you fall under the UN Convention, if yes, their job now is to resettle you to a third country. So they don’t do the vetting anymore. It’s the immigration of Hong Kong who is doing that. So once you’re under their system, then you don’t have any fear because you live outside, technically, living legally in Hong Kong.

Kino

Interesting. That’s very interesting. I would say that’s quite a big, huge difference with our system in Indonesia, and I suppose in Thailand as well.

Roy

Even now refugees can open a bank account. From the NGOs, like if I give a recommendation that you refuse to go to a bank to open a bank account, you know she can open a bank account in Hong Kong. And some refugees can even get married in Hong Kong with a document and then if their wife is a local resident, he or she can apply for a dependent visa, and they will not change the refugee status from a refugee to a dependent visa. And from that you can become Hong Kong resident.

Kino 21:37  

Are there many refugee led organizations in Bangkok, as well as in Hong Kong

Baqir

We saw a few refugee-led organizations but unfortunately, they didn’t provide sustainable things for refugees. Sometimes they do something but not like as that we always provide the education. Behind the education, we provide the internship program for refugees to come. We offer six month change officers, and we hire new refugees to come and learn how to lead how to teach.

Roy 22:20  

In Hong Kong, we have refugee-led organizations. And I will say many, most of the programs I mentioned to you are designed by refugees, we are more like giving the platform, right, we opened a platform for them to work because they cannot open organization, they cannot register organization, but we have to make it official for them to be able to lead the activities. Now we do have another organization where we call the refugee union. It’s very strong refugee-led. Again, it’s a refugee organization by, you know, you have a legal document, but most of the activities are initiated by refugees themselves.

Kino

You mentioned that you have partnership with Cisarua Learning Center. Can you explain a little bit more? What kind of partnership that is? What do you get out of that kind of partnership? What kind of information or maybe ideas or maybe inspirations?

Baqir  23:19  

I have met Cisarua director, his founder in Bangkok, one of the summit of Asia Pacific Refugee Rights Network. And he has been the first person who founded the first refugee infinitives in Indonesia, right. He had a lot of challenge that when he started and when I met him I I talked about BUCC, that how we started what were the challenges that we have right now, and he knows everything, because he had that experience. And especially he said no worry, that we can, you can be part of us. There are five organizations last year. We have some good time together. And last year in 2020, they call us to be together for first time. They support from them as to be at least half the space for organization. And after we did crowdfunding together. And by the name of [………] , which is registered in Australia. We only get financial support from them and also a lot of ideas and things we are always sharing together helping together if we need it.

Kino

How about Hong Kong or Branches of Hope? Is there any like working together a partnership or relationship in whatsoever form with organizations from like Indonesia or Malaysia or Thailand, for example

Roy

I think not, we do not have signed or have any relation with organizations, except you guys that we are communicating right now, which is interesting. But we are a member of APPRN. So, but we have really worked with organizations in our neighboring country, but we do have network with organizations in like, Canada, and New Zealand and, and then the US. Other than that we do not have in Asia Pacific region.

Ayu

I saw in the website of Branches of Hope you have a section of community stories, the story of the refugees in Hong Kong and you can picture in your website, how is these communities stories influencing the public awareness in Hong Kong about refugees? Is there any impact beside the other program?

Roy 26:06  

Yeah, of course, yes. You know, stories are powerful tools you can use to change perceptions. They can be used to give a new narratives. So most of these stories are written by refugees themselves, and some even by other people who work with refugees. So by sharing their experience on how they interact with refugees, and these stories are not to talk about refugee cases, or their vulnerabilities. These stories are mostly about capabilities. And it’s like, Okay, I’m a refugee. This is what I do, this what I can do this, who I am. We try to limit stories about I’m a refugee, I need food, I am desperate, I am dying, I am poor, I am wretched. You know, I know many of us, I use this kind of stories, because I want to raise money. But I will say it’s a very, very, very dangerous way of doing because you are sending a wrong message. So I’ve been having a very strong complaints with NGOs in Hong Kong, to stop doing this kind of storytelling about refugees. Because many of them wanted to refugee to go to play  I’m living on the street, I don’t have food, I need food to eat.. All these stories has caused more harm than good for the refugee community. So the story is to change the narrative of personal stories. So stories start from the point of strength. I’m a refugee. In my country, I was a doctor, I have number of people in my country, I was a driver. I was a truck driver. I was, you know, I’ve been doing this in my country. And I have the skills and have the skills. And I just my life, however. So once you put it that way, people start seeing more of the positive side of their stuff, their strength than you know,  then the story is that you got the skills, what can we do to help you improve those skills? And that’s the point we want to raise money from, not from what can we do to give you food on the table? So yeah, so that’s our story. I hope that answer your question.

Ayu  28:24  

Thank you, Roy. And I’m curious about what happened in Bangkok. Is there any similar program from BUCC or other organization in Bangkok, the goal is to maybe change the perspective of Bangkok community about refugees?

Baqir

We hold the World Refugee Day last year by leading BUCC team. It was online. But I think this is a very, very good way that refugees can tell stories. I saw a few NGOs from Singapore they approach to me that they want to start this program. But this time we are not agreed that how we can start this program together. I think this is a very good program we hoping that when we have we will start some extra page on our website and you will read all his stories in our website as well.

Kino 29:27  

I would just ask, perhaps the last question, is there any message that you’d like to convey to kind of our young Indonesian and refugees listeners?

Baqir

I know most of you have a lot of refugees. You hosted a lot of refugees in your country. And I think those refugees they didn’t want to come in your country, but they have to come in your country. It might be you like or you don’t like them. But to treat them as a human being, think the world something different. Everyone, every human being can walk and can leave freely and can communicate together and can exchange the culture together. I saw the majority of refugees from Afghanistan, and especially the minority of refugees from Afghanistan in Indonesia. Most of them come from the majority of Hazara community from Afghanistan. They never want to be refugees. But the situation, the historical situation for them is that they have become refugees. They didn’t find any way, they didn’t find a nice, safe space in Afghanistan, to live and to put their energy and fusion in Afghanistan, they have to leave there. I am hoping you happy with them, and share with them your knowledge, support them, and be friends with them. They are very good people, we are all trying for a change and better life for everyone in human beings. We are hoping for  every country as peace and freedom.

Roy

What I want to say to the young, talented refugees is that do not let your status define who you are. Think of yourself as a talented young boy or girl. Secondly, strive for your future. Look where you can impact yourself with knowledge, skills, and talent. Because where you are today, you might not be there tomorrow. But the skill you take with you will take to the next page of your life. And you can be a very good and powerful global citizen. Think globally. Do not limit yourself to your nationality, where you come from, or whatever you do contribute to the good of the world. And lastly, to those who are not refugees, I will echo what my colleague Baqir just mentioned. Welcome. Open your heart and your mind. And listen. Listen without bias, you will find a deep story that will change your perception. Spend some time and listen to the refugee story. Then you will come to realize how wonderful they are, how talented they are, and what you can learn from them. Definitely inspire you for your own life and for your own future.

Kino 33:11  

Okay, Ayu. So that was our conversation with both Baqir from Bangkok Urban Community Club, as well as Roy from Branches of Hope. I have a question for you. What do you think is the most interesting points from our conversation just now?

Ayu

Actually, today, I learned a lot from both of them. A lot of interesting points. I think. First, I read some documents about refugee situation in Bangkok before, but to hear from the refugee firsthand about the restriction, the fears and challenges of living in the urban situation in Bangkok made me realize that this kind of conversation needs to be helped more I think. And in this case, I really appreciate the BUCC as a refugee-led organization that can stand and offer help for their community to live a better life in Bangkok. And for refugee issue in Hong Kong is actually new for me. I never read about a refugee in Hong Kong before. So I was quite surprised that Branches of HOPE already been more than 15 years in advocating the government to have better policy for refugees in Hong Kong. And I think one of the most interesting part of our conversation is the community stories where refugees share their stories in positive ways. I mean, as a human being with all of their capabilities and their expertise has the same spirit in one of our programs in RDI UREF, to give more insight and the perspective of the society about refugees and how they could coexist or live together in our open environment. I think that’s one of the most interesting part that we have the similarities on that spirit

Kino

That’s true and I mean, it’s quite similar with what we’re trying to do with one segment of our podcast, right, the story storytelling segment. So I think we have comrades. We have friends who are doing the same thing or similar thing from different location. I think for me, the most interesting information was that the BUCC has a partnership with a refugee-led organization in Bogor, the Cisarua Learning Center. And I find that kind of connection within the refugee communities themselves are very encouraging. There’s a lot of information flow, if you have that kind of connection. And then from Branches of Hope, from Hong Kong stories, I think, for me, I didn’t expect the information about the opportunities like the Hong Kong government would open opportunities or chances for refugees to work legally. You know, Roy mentioned about 100, or 120, working permit that the government gave to refugees. So there is this space, which is very, very small compared to the number of the refugees in Hong Kong, but still, there is something you know, people can apply for that very competitive working permit.

Ayu

Yeah, that’s quite a progress there in Hong Kong, that the refugee can actually have the opportunity to work legally. That’s a big change. I think. 

Kino

There are similarities as well as differences between Indonesia, Hong Kong and the situation in Bangkok in Thailand, which I think we can learn from each other, right? Even if we’re quite different in some parts or some context. There are still things from our conversation that made me think, okay, maybe this is something that we could advocate for, or we could try to push for in Indonesia.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai