Conversation with Dr. Antje Missbach

Antje

Up to this point? Okay. All right. Well, thank you. Well, I supposed the crucial date for me was when I had finished my studies in Germany, and was looking for a PhD topic, and, and Indonesia has always been my main focus. But I was mostly interested in issues of like peace and conflict. And I started looking at Acehnese people who had migrated away from Indonesia, some of them had gone to Malaysia, and some of them to Scandinavia, Northern Europe. And I was interested in seeing how they influenced the homeland. And I did this for a while. And it was, it was interesting, but this kind of research always took me away from Indonesia. But I wanted to be in Indonesia. So then I thought, like, why don’t I look at refugees and asylum seekers who are going to Indonesia and this was around 2009 and 2010. And we did see quite a bit of an increase in people coming to Indonesia, because they were hoping to reach Australia, eventually, either through resettlement or by boat. So after my PhD, then I was lucky enough to get like a research grant that allowed me to do some fieldwork in Indonesia. And I started with the preliminary with the kind of pioneer study in 2010. And then the real fieldwork came in 2012. And this was a really, really interesting time. This was basically the peak time of like, people leaving for Australia, some of them getting stuck in Indonesia for years, some of them managing to transit really quickly. But it was basically the new infrastructure that was being set up. And well, then Australia succeeded in concealing its borders. And from 2013 onwards, no boats, no more boats were leaving. And that meant that a lot of people suddenly became really stuck in Indonesia. So the only thing they could hope for was resettlement. But at that time, Australia also decreases intake as annual intake from Indonesia. So that, of course, then triggered those people who were really, they had this kind of mindset, “I’m only here for a short time,” and then really started to embrace the idea. If we’re going to stay here for a long time, well, we better make it as good as possible for ourselves. So suddenly, they started to reach out, not only to other refugees, but also to Indonesian communities. And it was, of course, a very interesting process to see.

Kino

Oh, can I ask? Just a very basic question, why the interest in Indonesia?

Antje

Oh, Why am I interested? Oh, well, that’s it. It’s a very crucial biographic part of myself, like when I finished class 10, which is like class 1 SMA in your way of counting. I did an exchange in Indonesia. And I stayed in Semarang. And then this is where the love affair started.

Nino  3:31  

Oh, what did you find different from the Aceh diaspora living in Europe and those refugees living in Indonesia in a transit? What do you find the difference between them?

Well, I’ve never done, like, a systematic comparison. But there are of course, a few things that stand out. I mean, when looking at the Acehnese diaspora in different countries, you do see a very homogenic crew, they are all Acehnese. They’re very proud of being Acehnese. And most of them had this kind of pro independence mindset. Not all, but a lot of them. So they had a very clear political agenda. And they thought the raison d’etre, the cause of why they ended up having to go into exile, was this political struggle that they embrace. The second generation, probably less so.

Antje  4:23  

But they really tightly connected to each other. They had all these

Antje  4:29  

cultural events, these political meetings, they saw a lot of each other, they were very supportive. There was a really tight community and, and some people that were telling me they became more Acehnese in exile than they were back home because suddenly they have to think about it. What does it mean to be Acehnese, and they started to learn the stances that as a young girl, maybe they wouldn’t really want to learn they weren’t too interested, but once they are away from Aceh, this kind of re identification with their ethnic heritage set in. So it was 

Antje 5:00  

a very, especially if we could say ethnic, international community. And now with the refugees coming to Indonesia, of course, we see a great variety of people, there are more than 40 different ethnics and nationalities.

Antje 5:17  

Of course, the largest group being people from Afghanistan and Pakistan, but we also have people from Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan. Well, you know it. And

Antje 5:25  

so amongst those people, there is no such thing as a common identity really, like I mean, yes they are asylum seekers, but the reasons why they have left their countries of origin or their home countries are very different. And they usually don’t really talk so much about it, because it’s often personal issues, you know, like, it’s nothing to just be discussed, maybe in a large group. And you could also see that there was a little bit of segregation amongst refugees, like the Somalis would prefer to stay with the Somalis to some extent, but also not always, and Afghans will stay with amongst their peers. But there was also a bit of a difference depending on when you came, and your background on whether you were a politically involved person, or whether maybe you were running away from a forced marriage, like all this kind of played out, but it wasn’t really articulated in the open. So I also noticed with the refugees in the beginning, there was, of course, a lot of distrust amongst each other, like, people would not reveal things because they didn’t know who to trust, like it wasn’t quite clear, like what they could say what they couldn’t say. Whereas with the Acehnese, they were very much forthcoming. He would always tell him the agenda, expecting and I would take notes and carry it out to the big wide world to announce their statement. So very different ways of getting to know these groups and the Acehnese is easy. You get to know one person snowballing sets in and you get almost get to know all

Antje  6:58  

of the group, even though there was a bit of factionalism, of course, too, but it was it was easy, you know,

Antje 7:04  

to navigate the infrastructure, I wouldn’t know Acehnese people in Norway, even before I arrived in Norway, because the area was set up with context with refugees, they often start from scratch. And I noticed that particularly over the field work that I was conducting after 2012, it came back every year, sometimes once or twice, as often as I basically had the time to do that. And sometimes I came back to Indonesia and the people that I had known or make contact with in the year before they had gone. So basically, I started again from scratch. So it’s completely different setting, also for the research I was trying to conduct. So of course, there are some people that have been staying there for years. And I do remember one Somali family that I got to know in 2010 they’re still there, they had a chance to be resettled, but they kind of decided against, which is a bit unusual, but most of the people yeah, after a while, some were resettled,some got on a boat, some some even went back or somewhere else on that just lost context. So it’s a different scenario in terms of like dealing with these crews.

Nino

How do you see that? Why is those kind of places like connected with the identity? And is it connected with the feeling of acceptance, for example, those Acehnese in Europe are accepted, and they are politically protected. But those refugees transit in Indonesia, they are not accepted by the society. And they don’t have like a sweet memories or sweet experience in Indonesia, and they are not politically protected. How do you see that? Is my opinion correct in your assessment?

Antje

You may be asking about the cultural assimilation or integration acceptance? Um, well, I think maybe to start with, it always takes two to tango. So of course, it depends on the individual and the surrounding society on whether there is going to be some assimilation or not. And from my observation, the Acehnese were not very assimilated. They were, of course, accepted to the extent that like, yes, there’s another group of refugees coming here for a certain period of time. But then you also have to remember Europe is still very racist, you know, I mean, even though there is political asylum, it’s always going to be very difficult for them, you know, in everyday life, just because of the different color of their skin, different religion, depending on how outspoken they are when it comes to embracing their religion in their everyday life. So, I wouldn’t necessarily say that there was a large decree of assimilation, but then again, I would sometimes be really surprised to see these small steps. You know, like, for example, people weren’t really conscious about that. They have already adopted a little bit, you know, maybe some of them like to eat licorice

Antje  10:00  

You know, a very typical Scandinavian sweet that well, either you like it or you don’t like it, you know, it’s a strange taste, and some of them did. And I was a bit surprised because I thought like, well, usually they prefer sweets, not this kind of bitterish licorice stuff, you know. So you would sometimes see it with these small things, you know that there was something that they liked, you know, some of them like to eat draw herring, which even I wouldn’t eat, you know, but they had kind of adopted this custom, it was alright for them. You know, sometimes we were making jokes about it, sometimes they were kind of proud of it. So it was often more on a subconscious level, rather than this like really thought through, “Have I assimilated consciously? Do I want to assimilate because I see my presence here in this country for the next decade or two decades.” So it wasn’t really about this, because rhetorically, the people were always saying, I’m going to go back to Aceh, but only if that has turned into its own country. And so they were talking about return, but they also knew this is not going to happen. And when they had children, of course, they would at least wait until the kids had finished

Antje 11:04  

education. So there was the official message that was given to me. And then I could see all the things that they were doing that were in a way the opposite. And now with the refugees, it was very different. Again.

Antje 11:18  

And it’s really difficult to generalize here too, because some people really like Indonesia, we do know about refugee men that actually found themselves an Indonesian spouse. So you would say, to kind of estimate, for them worked out quite nicely, because they have married, they have been adopted into an Indonesian family. But that’s probably a bit of an acceptance. It has happened. I know a couple of these mixed marriages. And some of them actually were resettled together to their third country of resettlement. So there are those but a small number. With most of the others because they were hoping that they would be in Indonesia for a short period only, they didn’t see much of a purpose in like adopting or adjusting to the society around them. Plus, if they were detained in a detention center, there wouldn’t have been much of a chance to get to know ordinary Indonesians because they were just locked away. So.. But, well, of course, this again, this mindset started to change when people finally had to embrace the bitter truth that they most likely are going to stay in Indonesia for a long time, they had to start opening up to the surrounding society. And not maybe because out of preference, but out of economic necessity. If you have Indonesian friends, you can ask them for help, you can ask them where to find cheaper accommodation, you can find out about the real price, if you ask a becak driver or a bemo or whatever kind of a form of transport you’re choosing. So you needed to access this kind of informal information. And in order to get this knowledge with friendship and some kind of functional strategic connections with your surrounding Indonesians was very much needed. And some people mastered that really well, because they had a large group of Indonesian friends, they spoke the local dialect, like a lot of refugees from Makassar, they have this “nih, nih”

Antje  13:11  

when they talk. So you can really see that they have delved into, but it’s hard for an outsider to say like, what the decree of assimilation is. Is it something they do for strategic purposes, and ours is something that they can retain once they have left Indonesia, who knows. But one phenomenon that I like to talk about is I met a lot of young people who when I met them in Indonesia, they were always complaining, Indonesia this Indonesia that, you know, I just want to leave, I want to go somewhere else, I want to start real life. So three, four years later, I meet them again, for example, in Australia, and all of a sudden, the only thing they were talking about is, ah, I miss Indonesia. The people, the food was so good. And everybody was friendly. And some of them would make jokes about, like, how beautiful these Indonesian girls are, you know, they’re much easier to talk to. And they’re not like these Westerners who always ignore them. And I’m friendly, you know, and so suddenly, they start to build up this sweet memory of Indonesia, where life was more relaxed, because they didn’t have to work three jobs, you know, and it was easy. Like this sort of things suddenly strikes and then for me, Well, it’s interesting to see. But of course, the question is like, what has triggered this change of perception? You know, like, Is it really just the surrounding? Or is it also telling us a lot about themselves, you know, how they have changed and maybe how the heart always wants something, which just is not available in the time. So I mean, whatever the explanation for this is, but it’s a it’s an interesting observation, and I have met it on a number of occasions and some of them actually do go back to Indonesia once they have

Antje  14:55  

reached citizenship in Australia or Canada or wherever they have been resettled. They

Antje  15:00  

would come back to Indonesia. Sometimes because they have friends, but sometimes they just want to spend time there. Some even have this idea of doing business in Indonesia is a good way, you know?

Kino 15:10  

Are there, like, exchange of information? Or is it really just like, once you move, or once you are resettled, the connection is just gone. You know what I mean?

Antje

It depends, I think, because nowadays with social media, it’s so easy to main contact, even if you lose your mobile phone, which was in the beginning, always the problem, you know, somebody got on a boat, the boat sank, they lost everything, all the phone numbers were gone.

Unknown Speaker  15:35  

But nowadays, this is no longer an excuse. So if you want to maintain intact, or if you want to keep in contact with some of the people, this is always possible. But it depends really on what kind of person you are. So some people want to have this information. But then they know, in order to get the information from Indonesia, they also will have to listen to a lot of requests and complaints. So there’s sometimes also, at least in the beginning, this kind of conscious decision like oh, no, I want to start to embrace my new life, I want to go to school, I want to work all these jobs, I want to make money because I need to send it back to my family. And so and then the communication between them and those people who was dealing Indonesia might have, like, been decreased. Of course, you also have to appreciate the power of gossip. If you know certain news if they want to or don’t want to, you will find about it, because it just circulates so quickly, and people will bring it to you even if you don’t want to know about it. So yeah, so I think there is still quite some connection happening. And then of course, it will also be interesting to see what’s going to happen in 10 or 20 years from now. And when people, you know, have reached this age where they start to lean back and think so oh my life, what was this all about, and when they start to be become maybe also more grateful or more appreciative of certain things. And the reason why I say this is a while ago, I went to Galang, and as you know, this cemetery where for people who lost their lives living in Galang. And some of the graves, they are maintained quite nicely and some are almost perished. But that means that there must be a group of Vietnamese that returns to Galang every now and then to take care of the grave. Because it’s somehow important to them, you know, to remember this

Unknown Speaker  17:25  

member of the family, but also to remember the difficult times they had there, but maybe also to commemorate or celebrate, like what has come afterwards. And also, it’s almost like this pilgrimage, you know, to to some of them, maybe their darkest hours, but rather than to

Unknown Speaker  17:44  

only condemn it, they kind of try to make it nicer, some people have contributed to building a temple. So there is something much more than just the personal, the individual memories, so it’s just kind of like wanting to maintain the collective experience so that future generations might learn something from it. So, again, for the people who had come to Indonesia in the early 2000s 2010s, this is still too early, I think we have to wait another decade or two to see whether there is this kind of transnational lasting link that those people who have stayed in Indonesia for a year or five or 10 whether there’s something that connects them to the place or to the people.

Nino

It’s very interesting because for me, the transit period, how can we, like, I’m always thinking about the argument that we can present to the government or for the Indonesian society about the needs to accept and the need to..not accept but more friendlier to those refugees. And one of the argument that they always are presenting as a counter argument is always this is only transit, but with having this kind of experience, we have to have this kind of argument and the government believes that those people are not here to make us to burden us but those people are also can be here to be some messengers probably in the world or something like that

Antje  19:13  

Yeah, see, like the strategic purpose..

Antje  19:17

Yeah, I mean, I agree. But when it comes to this idea of soft diplomacy, we could see or we could try to perceive refugees as like cultural messages to say or even ambassadors, you know, they will present an picture or an image of Indonesia to a much wider crowd. We don’t know that will be better. They will have something to say about Indonesia and Indonesia is concerned about its reputation, its image globally. Well, there you go.

Kino 19:56  

From your observation, in terms of, like,lessons that or experience that that the refugees have during transit? How is it not beneficial? But is it useful? Or is it not useful at all for them during the resettlement? Do you have any insights on this? 

Antje

Well I have, again, only anecdotal observation, because I don’t think that anybody has done, like, a systematic study to see, like, what kind of hard skills and soft skills have been acclaimed while in transit and how have they been utilized? But I mean, honestly, I think learning another language is always going to be a big asset, like no matter what language it is you’re whether it’s Indonesian or Bahasa Makassar or any language. I think, I mean, I’m not a neuroscientist, but I suppose everybody would say like, the more languages that you learn at a certain age, like it really has a lasting impact on your brain, because then the next language after that, that you’re going to learn is going to be so much easier, because you already know how to learn a language. And even if you didn’t get, like, systematic instruction, you know, by an expert, who tells you establish the grammar and then this and then that, you know, you do acquire this kind of idea, like, what we need to know what kind of expressions you know, like, what what are the important words, and which is the vocabulary you will probably never need again. So, if I think like those people who learn Indonesian who are, you know, spent a time or reached out for them, of course, this is an extra asset in the future. I mean, it doesn’t mean that everybody now has to become a professional translator for Farsi, Indonesian and English, you know, but it’s, it does something to them. Because, for example, by learning a language, you learn so much more, you know, like, you learn about cultural identity, differences, so it opens up a whole new universe to do it to you. And this is only through another language. And yeah, some people might forget about that language if they don’t use it. But something is always stuck in the back of their mind, you know, like to hear something and say, Oh, hang on, isn’t that an Indonesian word? And why do we use it in English? Like, why do we say nasi goreng? And why do we say this and that? You know, so I mean, I think learning a language is definitely always an asset. Like, whether you’re a refugee or not, I think that’s that’s a good thing. But other things that people have learned in Indonesia? I don’t know. I mean, oneskill that I learned as a exchange student was to learn to negotiate bargain, you know, like you don’t have to accept the price, like when they say, but you can actually, you know, bargain.

Kino  22:37  

Haha yeah.

Nino  22:42  

A very important skill in Indonesia, bargaining.

Antje  22:46  

So yeah, there’s lots of other examples we could think about. But yeah, of course, it’s a good possibility, if you anciently are not locked up behind bars, you know, I mean, as soon as people are put in a jail, you know, for years, then there’s nothing good about it, you know, like, even if they learn to be resilient, but there’s nothing that they can really take in positive terms with them. And this is, as soon as people are locked away, it’s going to crush them, it’s caused damage to them, like lasting damage, you know, like people usually doctors saying, if somebody has been locked up for more than three months, like the consequences for people’s mental health, are tremendous years later, you know, like, they will have to deal with God knows nightmares, depression, anxiety, this and that. So anything that is detention, in transit is a really, really, really bad idea. But if people have some freedoms, if they are somehow in charge of what they can do, who they can reach out, you know, this is always going to open up a much better way for them to

Antje  23:47  

live their lives.

Nino

Yeah, there’s no more refugees in detention in Indonesia. That’s, that’s a very good, one of a good step that we can add on the positive side. Haha.. We have this table of what has been done, and have should be done, something like that.

Nino  24:09  

From your observation, should we want to like helping helping those refugee who stuck in Indonesia for years? What is the most, like, important skill? What is the most important thing in the resettlement if they get resettled, of course.

Antje

Ah, but it is a very different skill set. I mean, first of all, I would say, to find out what people think is the most important thing they need right now, the best way to find out about this is of course, asking them doing some surveys and but then I think you also have to be really precise, like, the skills or the needs that people have, while they’re still Indonesia are probably very different from, for example, the skills and the needs they will have once they are resettled, and of course people want to ideally start preparing now for something that they can use later, but we still don’t know what this is.

Antje 25:00  

going to be the later, like, what is going to be a transferable skill. I mean, I, what I noticed is, like, a lot of refugees, they start to learn coding, you know, like this kind of computer languages and programs, because they know, in western countries, there’s always a shortage of IT experts. So, so one would think, Well, great idea, let’s learn coding that doesn’t need much, you know, like, you need to learn these languages. And once you have mastered it, you can write computer programs. But then again, it’s evolving and changing very quickly. So something you learn today might be outdated next year. So it’s a good idea, but it might or might not work for the time being, nevertheless, I think, what’s, what’s the harm, if you know what, you know, like, surely you can upgrade it later on or extend it? So but I don’t know. I mean, it seems that a lot of people they need to find means to, first of all keep busy and not go depressed. But also, it’s about economic needs. And people, they don’t usually want to have charities, you know, and stuff given to them for free, they, they usually find more purpose and more meaning if they know, this is what I have earned, you know, with my own keringat sendiri..What is it, like?

Unknown Speaker  26:17  

Something that they, you know, it might be a small old car, but at least you know, I earned it, you know, like it was not given to me, or this is an old bicycle, and maybe you know, this and that, but at least I have managed to get it. So that makes them proud. It gives them dignity. But of course, this is the big issue for Indonesia, like the kind of working permits. The main issue here is probably that the go to authorities in Indonesia are always people from the foreign ministry. But when it comes to issues such as work, it’s not their portfolios. So, civil society, UNHCR, and whoever wants to lobby for this kind of rights, they will have to identify different people in different ministries to actually involve them. But I don’t know from the Kementerian Sosial or the Kementerian Tenaga Kerja, I don’t know how much they have been educated about refugees, or what their mindset is, you know, as, as a sector, whether they just still confused about, you know, labor workers, labor migrants and workers from China and refugees, maybe they still throw them in the same port, and therefore mix up all the issues that are of course, very different, you know, so I can’t really say much about this, but I suppose

Antje  27:37  

involving them into a large discussion and always pointing out that refugees are not stealing jobs from Indonesia, as discussed,  but they are rather adding something which otherwise would not exist. I think it might be the start to come up with some sort of convincing argument. But when they talk about work license, usually not about like, being allowed to work as construction worker or working in a factory, these kinds of jobs. There’s lots of Indonesians who are really keen to do these jobs. But it’s really more about

Antje 28:11  

being able to, to do things, you know, like maybe work as a journalist or be a consultant or be allowed to do business. I remember visiting one of the job fairs that were organized by the UNHCR. And they had about 50 groups or something always mix Indonesian and non Indonesian refugee. And I was interested in seeing the ideas that had to come up with and the majority of them was like business, of course, you know, some of them wanted to open up

Antje 28:43  

the restaurants like selling Afghan or Hazara food. So this is not stealing a job from an Indonesian because they are offering a product which Indonesians would not offer. So it’s basically tapping into a different kind of market segment. But then there was also like, particularly the Somalis, they were keen on doing this kind of import export thing. They thought like Indonesia has beautiful textiles, Somali people back in Somalia, they love this kind of batik. Well, why don’t we find a way of, you know, sending it from A to B. Again, nothing I have really looked into but I mean, it would be very interesting to see how much of this is already happening. And like, maybe some people are already like doing this kind of business. Who knows. I mean, there’s a lot of African businessmen in Jakarta and, and they have set up their organization and networks. And I don’t know to what extent for example, refugees are part of this or whether they are completely separated from there, but it would be interesting to find out and I think also it would be a really, really important study for the future. If we could find like somebody like an economist who can crunch the numbers to calculate what is the economic contributions of the refugee population to Indonesia, like if we would know why I think there is, it would be such an important argument

Antje 30:00  

for the Indonesian government, because the Indonesian government always saying like, Oh, they are a burden, you know, we have to give them money. And it’s true, but only for people like the Rohingya who have just arrived, they had just been rescued. And they have to be given a place now, some clothes sime food and medical tests, you know, but most of the other refugees, they’re not living off Indonesian money, like, they have to find own money to pay the rent, or they have to live in a community shelter, they buy their food, they buy their phone credit, they buy their clothes, and God knows what. So and it’s somebody who could actually make a calculation like how, how much money are we talking about, like, what is the circulation for all of Jakarta, for all of the refugees all over Indonesia. That would be beautiful, like some somebody should maybe write a research proposal or write a PhD about this, you know, I think it would be really, really helpful, if we would know, and say, this is actually the real number, you know, we crunch the numbers. It’s not just we didn’t just ask three or four people, but we actually did a proper calculation, protection is always going to be the main issue. But again, there are different forms of protection. And that makes probably Indonesia very special, again, even in Southeast Asia. So like, yes, there is no formal protection available as like in the sense of the international refugee regime. But if you compare the situation to those people in Thailand and Malaysia, even, you know, like, I would dare to say that they are much better off in Indonesia, because as you said, before, Indonesia at least has decided to abolish immigration detention, this is a huge

Antje  31:35  

advantage compared to what

Unknown Speaker  31:38  

refugees have to deal with in Malaysia, where they can always be sent back into the immigration detention center or deported or you notice this corporal punishment. So all these things do not exist in Indonesia, Indonesia, in a way we could say is way ahead. So even though there is most of the protections is kind of informal protection, but it’s so much more leeway for people, you know, to make sure that they’re safe, you know, if they have good relations with their neighborhoods, you know, with the, with their neighbors, they can increase their personal safety, because they know, if somebody comes who wants to blackmail them, or steal them, or this, that they can also rely to some extent of their neighbors saying, hey, hang on, you can’t do this, you know, like, this is my friend, you’re not gonna talk like this to this person, you know. So there’s this, I often find it is just a bigger decree of this kind of informal protection available to refugees. And, as you say, because maybe this is already like the starting point. Now, there’s so much more else that needs to be explored. Because I think we are really in for some long term phenomenon here. So I mean, of course, the government, they like to talk about transit and things are over. But yeah, I think deep down in their heart, they also know that this is not going to be gone. You know.

Nino

Do you think, Bu Antje, that this normalization of refugees in Indonesia is possible that given that you already observed Indonesian people and refugees in Indonesia. So do you think that once we started normalize having refugees in Indonesia, is it possible to have that conversation among Indonesian society?

Antje

Yeah, I really hope so. I mean, normalizing is really a good word, and not just in regard to Indonesia, but basically for the entire world. Because the conversation now is always people saying we need the solution. And then you think like, okay, solution like solution for what, like, what, how, if you want a solution, you need to define the problem, like what is actually the problem, like, and then people say, Oh, the existence of refugees, this is the problem. And I said, well, then it’s all about changing the root causes. Well, I like when you say normalizing, because it in a way means that we will have to accept, there will always be refugees, there will always be people who have to leave their homes and their home countries with different reasons, this will not stop. And we are not in a position to stop this, because we’re simply not doing anything for this. So if we accept the fact that people will be coming and going, and sometimes they’re coming from Somalia, because something goes wrong there, but maybe then the conflict in Somalia comes to an end. But there will be people from Libya or people from Myanmar. So if we kind of accept this fact, that there’s always going to be this kind of global movement and mass movements, that a lot of people will be coming in short period of time, if you can accept this as a fact, you know, then you can actually start to normalize because that means, in some circumstances, these people will come to Europe, in some circumstances, they will go to Asia, you know, like so this is the normalizing by saying, well, we just have to live with this fact that people might come to our country and then we have to deal with it, you know, and the solution is not to push back the boats into the sea. Like if we see people like Rohingya who have been on a boat for months in the Andaman Sea, the solution is not to send them back

Unknown Speaker  35:00  

to Bangladesh, who will just put them on this uninhabitable Island. The solution is to bring them on land and to find a way of dealing with them until they have, or they are in the position to decide what they want to do next. And it could be that they wish to go back. Or it could be that they wish to go somewhere else. Or that could also be that they say like, Well, actually, we would like to stay here. What do we have to do to be accepted as citizens in this country? Like, what can you do that we accepted as taxpayers? What can we do to contribute to Indonesia, you know, like, being more relaxed, being treating it as a normal issue, you know, without so much panicking, I think it’s definitely would be a very healthy recommendation. It’s not just the government of Indonesia, but I think even more so to the governments in Europe, and in Australia, like they, they are even worse when it comes to panicking.

Kino

My question is, really, I want to know, like, what is your plan at the moment in terms of like, research?

Antje 36:04  

My plan? Mostly trying to finish up some, some half baked ideas. So I’m doing a special issue with a colleague from Australia,

Antje 36:15  

on refugee and regional refugee protection in Southeast Asia, and they’re particularly focusing on the so-called local turn. But it’s mostly with lawyers. So it’s going to be very legalistic collection of papers, so we have to finish this. And then I also have to finish the book, which is not really about refugees, but kind of related to them. It’s about the people’s marketing networks that had developed in Indonesia. So and then for the more remote future, I think I would like to do something more comparative, you know, looking also at Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia to develop a bit more of a macro perspective, what’s happening in the region. So that’’s a possibility.

Kino  37:05  

Mbak Nino, what do you think about our discussion with Antje Missbach?\

Nino

One thing that I realized now that transitory contexts, and one of the standout point for me was when Bu Antje talk about the experience of being in transit for refugee who has been resettled, it’s not always about the gloomy time, it’s not always about the dark time, but also about the people, the society, and the good memories they spend in Indonesia, even though maybe when they experienced it, they don’t really realize that, but once they move, they realize that.

Kino

I mean, I agree with you, that’s very interesting. And that’s a very strong point that needs to be realized by the refugees themselves, and also by the communities in Indonesia, as a host communities, you know. I think, for me other point is really about the linkage of resettled countries and transit, quote unquote, countries, that kind of transfer of knowledge of information from people who have been resettled to those who are still in transit, somehow we need to bring that information to those who are in transit that because it influenced their perspectives of what their resettled life means, or what it looks like, you know, it’s not all wines and roses, you know, a lot of challenges and it’s a different challenges. So it’s not like once you resettle you then you have a good life and be happy. I mean, of course, you will you know, because one big hurdle is already…

Nino

A challenge is still coming like in different contexts, in different forms. So they have to learn that, they have to realize that.

Kino

What is the point of this conversation for Indonesians?

Nino

That actually what we do means a lot for other people. For example, refugees who have got succeed in other places, probably still thinking that Indonesia is a good place and then they still maintain the connection with Indonesian people. Still, very much in a good, putting a good light to Indonesian. So it’s, it’s always good actually. In international relations theory, it’s called soft power.

Kino

I learned something new today.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai